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Michael's joke?

Based on the daily show I'd say Michael's point was that the context in which the joke was repeated was all important and Estelle's point was that the location where the joke was told might trump that. She thought the BB house wasn't a great location for it. That makes sense to me. Anything that is said in the house can be stripped of context. The producers didn't do that with the joke but it could have happened and for all the housemates know, the footage could have been live streamed and repeated by viewers.

Yeah, I think part of the point she was making was about him giving the joke a platform, thinking it could be aired on TV. I remember Kim in BB3 told one too and they aired it, I think Estelle is thinking in terms of it being irresponsible to expose the joke to a wider audience.

It's hard to say more without seeing the footage (not that I think the producers should show it), but it sounds like Michael actually retold the joke properly, rather than saying "oh, it was about ________, the punchline was something like _________". We don't know if it was a short Q&A type joke, which it would be more understandable that he would retell as is, or if it was a longer story type joke which he retold in full. We also don't know what his tone of voice was, if it was obvious that he was condemning the joke or not, or why he felt it necessary to tell it a second time. He sounds to me like he's in damage control and lashing out at Estelle in the process, using his favourite insult of attacking the other person's intelligence.
 
Michael was only annoyed because he thought her saying the joke was offensive to her might make him look bad. Then had a spazzy fit.

I don't want to go all PC, but speaking of offensive, there is no room for the word "spazzy".

In this day and age, tard is a far more acceptable term when talking spaz. It sort of takes the sting out. I find the terms full tard, twist of tard, is a less offensive way to describe the same thing.

For example instead of saying "spazzy fit" you could have said - he responded like a tard who had just been stung by a bee.

It is just about being compassionate.
 
Except spastic and retarded are two very different things...

Estelle isn't as dumb as Michael claims her to be, but she did say the whale's the biggest fish in the ocean. That was the same quiz where Michael said Launceston was the capital of Tassie though!
 
From what I saw Michael apparently said the joke to then explain why it was so offensive. His arguement to me went along the line of, tell the joke and say why it's a bad joke. That way people may think before they laugh at it or say it again. That seemed to be Michaels arguement. Estelle seemed to think the joke wasn't appropriate in the BB house and it shouldn't have been said. I can see what Michaels means and Bradley pretty much summed up why Michael felt like he did. Brad said about it's just fun, just picking at people like everyone does. Which is true, but doesn't make it right. Now whether this sort of discussion needs to take place in the BB house, where having deep convos about life doesn't seems to be the place and where giving racist other jokes isn't a good thing, is a another arguement all together.

I am no fan of Estelle, to me she seems very young for a 23 year old (as in teen young). But what she said could also be correct and maybe she doesn't agree with the reason that Michael gave for telling the joke. Or maybe she didn't get it. Or maybe she jumped on him before he made it clear what it was all about. Or maybe Michael did say the joke and that was that, but after his explanation as to why he said it, none of the HM's said he was lying. So there must've been some conversation going on after it.

The thing is without seeing the times Estelle mentioned re Michael, we really haven't got a clue. It's a simple fact of deciding who you want to believe based on the HM you like. It's not unknown for Estelle to jump in before the facts, it's not unknown for Michael to wanna talk 'deep', but we really have no idea of his full personality and know that if you want to stay in the BB house, racism isn't the way.

I am more inclined to support Michael on this, but I'm aware that we are not seeing a lot, so it really is based on the fact I prefer him. I'm not mad keen on him, but I would believe him over Estelle. Not because I don't trust Estelle, just because of the way she is. That doesn't actually mean though that Estelle and her perception of it was wrong. After all it's based on both their perceptions of a situation.

So to end this long post, no one can actually say Michael or Estelle was right or wrong. We didn't see the situation so we really don't know.
 
I want to see both clips if the 1st and 2nd time joke telling.

Guess we won't be shown until BB decides to dump Michael and gives him some 'bad' rap.
 
I gather Michael was only talking about a racist joke he unwittingly made as a child. I don't understand what he did wrong, and Estelle sounds like an idiot for not getting where he was coming from. Maybe this is why she is unpopular.

Its called mind blindness & is associated with autism. Its the inability to comprehend other peoples state of mind and hence their intentions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind-blindness

I am no fan of Estelle, to me she seems very young for a 23 year old (as in teen young).
Delayed emotional development is another psych symptom.

Estelle is not mentally ill but has a few indications. Others interpret this as being weird.
 
I just don't like one person dictating what is "appropriate" for another housemate to say. If Michael says something, and it's truly offensive, then that should be on his head .... not have it policed by somebody else.

I go back to my comment earlier in the thread ... because I wonder how long it will be before we actually have "humour police" that cart you off for re-programming if you say something non-PC?

My opinion is, if you don't like a particular joke or topic of conversation, then ignore it, walk away if you have to.

To all the people that go faint and wail "won't somebody think of the children" at the thought of a racist joke .... let me ask you a question. Have you ever told a joke about, or laughed at a joke about - An Irishman? A blonde? A catholic priest? A Kiwi? A fat chick? A bald guy? A jehovahs witness? A gay guy? A ranga? An old person? A woman? A blind person? A lawyer? Somebody with missing teeth?

P.S. if I use the words "race" or "racist" or "racism" ... I'm simply using them because they are the words that people use (even though they are wrong). There is only one "race" ... the human race. When we talk about differences, we are actually meaning ethnicities or cultures or whatever.
 
Estelle prefers to characterise Michael as telling a joke. This is her on the high horse again. It's an opportunity to grandstand about how good she is. At the dinner table she tries again to get away with this mischaracterisation to queer the pitch in her favour but Josh immediately corrects her.

Josh: He wasn't telling a joke he was retelling a story of a time that he was told a joke, just to clarify.

Estelle: Yeah I know, but I find for me particularly there is a time and a place for everything with the jokes but I don't think jokes should be particularly at someone's expense only really in the case of race, like I know you weren't saying it was funny because it was race based.

Michael: No it was the exact opposite.

Estelle: You were saying the opposite but I think there is always a forum and like a particular thing like the BB house is not a place for any of those jokes. I think around the dinner table at home it's a little bit different but I think there is always a forum for them but I'm really against jokes that are race based.

Michael then goes on to reiterate that he wasn't using BB as a forum for a racist joke. It seems Estelle can only frame the discussion as being about a racist joke. Sadly, her fans outside are buying into this. She's actually trying to make it sound like there are racist jokes going on in the house.

This situation is the opposite of Kim from BB3. She did tell a racist joke, quite unselfconsciously, thinking she was being funny. Estelle has taken the whole thing out of context. She gives lip service to that context because it's plain to everyone else but still can't resist making a stand so that she can shine her PC sheriff's badge.

Talking about the wrongness of racism is perfectly valid. Estelle has simply fished out the example of racism he used in his story to make herself look superior. This sort of behaviour helps to explain why she's so unpopular in the house.
 
You only have to mention a nationality these days to have the word "Racist" thrown at you by someone. It's interesting though, quite often these brilliant social protectors have a great deal of difficulty telling the difference between nationality and race. In fact I'm quite sure a lot of them don't even know there is a difference.

And what are those human 'races'?

AKAIk human variation is referred by scientists as a cline or continuum, there are no rigid fixed little 'negro', 'mongoloid' etc.. boxes that humans can be accurately pigeonholed to.

Nationality – Australian. If I move to America and take out citizenship I will become American.
Race – I am white. It doesn’t matter where I go, or what I do, I will be white.
Culture – I am an Australian, I was brought up Christian but no longer identify myself as a Christian. If I move to China I will always have personality traits of an Aussie, and I will still want Easter Eggs. However, the longer I stay in China, the more those traits may fade. I will also pick up new traits that are unique to people who live in China. I may also find a new religion at some point which may ulter my personal culture.
 
Estelle lost this battle... She got it wrong, I think Michael is a jerk however on this occasion he was telling a story based on this joke & she tried to implicate him as telling & retelling this racist joke which was not true...

Sometimes she is so busy cutting people off with her 2 cents worth she misses the important parts of the conversations & then refuses to admit she's wrong... I'd give her 4 votes each week too lol...
 
Nationality – Australian. If I move to America and take out citizenship I will become American.
Race – I am white. It doesn’t matter where I go, or what I do, I will be white.
Culture – I am an Australian, I was brought up Christian but no longer identify myself as a Christian. If I move to China I will always have personality traits of an Aussie, and I will still want Easter Eggs. However, the longer I stay in China, the more those traits may fade. I will also pick up new traits that are unique to people who live in China. I may also find a new religion at some point which may ulter my personal culture.

There's no such thing as a white person.

You do know that Indians from the sub-continent are considered chocolate skinned 'Caucasians' under the Negroid-Mongoloid-Caucasian classification system right? Arabs and Middle Eastern people would fall under the (caramel) 'Caucasian' label as well. lol

The reality is 'Race' as a concept has no scientific basis, the diversity of human population is akin to a continuum with no clear cut boundaries to separate humans accurately.

But that's not what some ''whites' want to hear because it doesn't match their 'subconscious' superiortiy complex. In today's world dominated by a predominant 'white' US culture, being white carries a level of cool so to speak. So it's not surprising that some of those individuals who are considered to be 'white' don't wanna give the concept of 'race' up due to advantages and privileges that come with it.
 
Estelle lost this battle... She got it wrong, I think Michael is a jerk however on this occasion he was telling a story based on this joke & she tried to implicate him as telling & retelling this racist joke which was not true...

Sometimes she is so busy cutting people off with her 2 cents worth she misses the important parts of the conversations & then refuses to admit she's wrong... I'd give her 4 votes each week too lol...

I don't think you can really be right or wrong with something like this. However I clearly don't at all see where Estelle was trying to implicate him at all? There was nothing to admit she was wrong about. She doesn't think it's appropriate. It's a different of opinion and one with no specific answer.

Considering all house mates do is complain about her behavior, down to what she puts in her hair. Yet she can't mention she doesn't like racist jokes?
 
I agree with Michael on this one. Even though I hate racist jokes and do not find them funny in the slightest. I think it's okay to discuss something offensive rather than pushing it aside, in a ignorance is bliss kind of attitude. Michael wasn't saying it to make people laugh, he was trying to have an in depth discussion.
 
I don't want to go all PC, but speaking of offensive, there is no room for the word "spazzy".

In this day and age, tard is a far more acceptable term when talking spaz. It sort of takes the sting out. I find the terms full tard, twist of tard, is a less offensive way to describe the same thing.

For example instead of saying "spazzy fit" you could have said - he responded like a tard who had just been stung by a bee.

It is just about being compassionate.



Slang term of "spazzy" means "out of ones mind." May have origins in spastics, but the meaning has moved ohttp://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/spazzy


Also Spaz at Dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spaz


Spaz

verb (used without object) spazzed, spaz·zing.
2.
to move in an awkward or clumsy way (usually followed by out ): She spazzed out and we had broken glass all over the floor.
3.
to become more angry than a situation warrants (usually followed by out ): Mom spazzed out when she smelled cigarette smoke on my clothes.
4.
to twitch: He was spazzing and muttering to himself, like the old speed freak he is.

Slang Dictionary

spaz definition
[spæz]
n.
a fit or an attack; a strong reaction to a bad or funny situation. : Take it easy! Don't have a spaz.
n.
a total jerk; someone who overreacts to something. (Not used for a congenitally spastic condition.) : Some spaz is in the other room screaming about a stolen car.
 
She can mention she doesn't like racist jokes, but to repeatedly tell Michael to stop saying the same joke when in fact he was describing a story about how he heard the joke - well, she needs to listen to the conversation & not suggest he is actually telling that joke.

She kept saying "you've told that joke 3 times' when in fact he didn't 'TELL' the joke, he was explaining how he heard it... Her repeated complaints of him telling the joke to me, suggests she was implicating he condoned it & was saying it over and over...
 
There's no such thing as a white person.

You do know that Indians from the sub-continent are considered chocolate skinned 'Caucasians' under the Negroid-Mongoloid-Caucasian classification system right? Arabs and Middle Eastern people would fall under the (caramel) 'Caucasian' label as well. lol

The reality is 'Race' as a concept has no scientific basis, the diversity of human population is akin to a continuum with no clear cut boundaries to separate humans accurately.

But that's not what some ''whites' want to hear because it doesn't match their 'subconscious' superiortiy complex. In today's world dominated by a predominant 'white' US culture, being white carries a level of cool so to speak. So it's not surprising that some of those individuals who are considered to be 'white' don't wanna give the concept of 'race' up due to advantages and privileges that come with it.


You’re a prime example of why no one can discuss what racism actually is, and what actually causes the tension to develop between ethnic groups. I use one generic description of my own skin colour and suddenly I’m subconsciously racism and hold a superiority complex?
Yes, I’m white. My skin is so damned pasty it nearly glows in the dark. Because I have English, Irish, French, German, and Russian heritage… Which has left me with very pale skin that is referred to as white, and on a side note refuses to tan and sun burns like a bitch.
I thought separating race and culture made it clear that I view race as genetics, and culture as our behaviour and who we actually are.

I do feel that being able to use words to identify what aspect of a person we’re talking about is important. There are some incredibly stupid people who will hate anyone who look Chinese, even if their family has been in Australia for 4 generations, and have an Australian culture. There are people who are stupid and fear different religious views, or get upset when they see someone wearing something different, talk a different language, or eat different food.
Then there are all the Aussie who hate people from New Zealand just because they’re from New Zealand and vice versa.

Each of these examples is racism, however they all need to be handled differently. So yes. We NEED to be able to use our language to define what the racism in question is before we can actually address it in any meaningful way.


As of race not being a concept has no scientific basis, it’s the word used in Australian legislation, and has been defined as colour, descent or ancestry, nationality or national origin, ethnicity or ethnic origin.
Google the Equal Opportunity Act 2010, download the PDF and go to page 23. That’s why I use it, and that’s why it’s commonly accepted that when it’s used within the Australian vernacular, it’s not referring to a scientific principle.
 
She can mention she doesn't like racist jokes, but to repeatedly tell Michael to stop saying the same joke when in fact he was describing a story about how he heard the joke - well, she needs to listen to the conversation & not suggest he is actually telling that joke.

She kept saying "you've told that joke 3 times' when in fact he didn't 'TELL' the joke, he was explaining how he heard it... Her repeated complaints of him telling the joke to me, suggests she was implicating he condoned it & was saying it over and over...



I swear some people are in fantasy land who just make up what is happening?

He said the joke while telling a story and she disagreed it needed repeating.

Then it came up as part of a dinner discussion topic.

Where the fuck is she repeatedly telling Michael to stop saying the same joke?

He said the joke. She said she didn't like it. People brought up when racist jokes are appropriate. She said she didn't think it was appropriate the situation he told the joke.

HOW IS THIS REPEATEDLY complaining? Geez talk about misrepresentation.


Also how the do people not understand whether you tell a joke as part of a story or just simply for the jokes sake. It is still TELLING the joke?

It's the base level of jumping up and down nit picky on words when the argument being made holds no grounds.
 
Also how the do people not understand whether you tell a joke as part of a story or just simply for the jokes sake. It is still TELLING the joke?

It is entirely mischaracterising the matter to describe it as "telling a racist joke". He's using a racist joke as an example to make a point about racism. There's a considerable difference. Estelle seems more interested in walking on moral high ground than listening to what people are actually saying.
 
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