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Reading the Ben & Estelle threads
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Mizzeerie
Professional Hobo
Eh, didn't think Estelle was great, but that is me. I thought Ben wasn't the worst person in the world, but that is also me. but I think its pretty pathetic how people have carried on. Like get over it, we see an edited version, people all take things in different perspectives, and people can at times learn from their behaviour and some don't. Who cares. Let's have fun with this season, TBH this trend of ex-HM's joining is kinda annoying if it's just so they can continue on this BS. In saying that I spend every day at work listening to people having to talk about grievances that they have blown waaaaaaay out of proportion, so I might have a low BS threshold outside of work.
paranvoi
Secret agent of the Stellahood
my mind is literally being fucked when i read this response. first of all, how does that relate to ANYTHING said in @up_all_night's post? secondly, how is responding "no" to that question "playing the victim card", which was your whole purpose for creating this thread. isn't it the exact opposite, i.e. denying victim status? and thirdly you must have never experienced bullying in your life, because you obviously don't understand it. when people face traumas or hardships in life they use coping mechanisms to survive. denial was a coping mechanism that estelle used constantly in the house, as well as preventing herself from reacting emotionally (there were many instances of her breaking down into tears and then quickly stopping herself and trying to laugh it off). i can tell you that it is never easy to admit to yourself that you are being bullied or systematically socially excluded, much less to the whole freaking country.
Mercy
Well-Known Member
There is no need to argue over semantics. Bullying or not, the fact is that Estelle was treated like shit by the vast majority of Big Brother 9 housemates, purely because they thought she was strange, and that they deserved their place in the house above her. Perhaps you don't consider social isolation to be a form of bullying, or that Estelle strategically sought out her status as an outcast to win our sympathy. Fair enough, but when I watched BB9, I saw attempt after attempt of Estelle trying to integrate herself within that group and always meeting rejection. Why do you think she so naively accepted Michael's advances when he made the bizarre move to hook up with her? She was very naive, and sought out whatever semblance of belonging to a group she could get. Ava. Michael. Remember the Layla and Sam alliance (which lasted about a week before Layla was back to hating Estelle's guts again...)? When you're met with such open hostility from a group like that, you'll take whatever rare scraps of kindness they throw you.
I don't feel the isolation was brought upon herself. Up_All_Night brings up an excellent example of this, where Ben and that vile wench Stacey tried to think up a way of splitting Ava and Estelle up. Estelle was "isolating Ava from the group" in their minds. Incidents such as these paint a picture of a group of people doing their best to isolate Estelle from the group, simply because they saw themselves above her - in their minds, she was just so lame, and they were just so awesome. They were above associating with her. They didn't just do it to her, either. Anybody who was deemed too lame to associate with this group of narcissists was deemed a meeper, and treated with as much hostility and disdain as possible, lest people start to think that they are LAME BY ASSOCIATION. Such was the entitlement of these housemates - they deserved Ava more, they deserved to remain in the house more than Estelle, how dare these MEEPERS interrupt THEIR conversations with their EXISTENCE.
There's a reason I hate so many of the Big Brother 9 housemates - when I watched the patterns of behaviour exhibited in that house, I didn't see very nice people. There was a clear group mentality in that house, and for no real reason - never once did I hear a well articulated reason from a housemate for why they hated Estelle with such zeal. In the diary room, the housemates even admitted that there was nothing really wrong with Estelle. The excuses were always "she's annoying", or "she's weird and acts strangely sometimes!". Boo fucking hoo. Learn to live with it, stop thinking you are above everyone, and learn to treat people as human beings. Even to this day, when Ben brought up the topic of Estelle in his housemate thread and why she was such a bad person who deserved it, he still can't articulate why. It's always a vague hint that she said or did something horrible, and that she's such a horrible person for this reason, but he won't go into details about it, because it would be "petty". THEN WHY BRING IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE? Insinuating, to this day that his behaviour was somehow justified says enough about how petty he still is. The truth is that Estelle was just a normal girl, who they started a hate campaign against because they thought she was lame and that they were above her. When she survived against people they deemed better than her, they got pissed and the hate intensified. Simple as that.
I recall hearing Zoe has since apologized to Estelle after the show for going along with the group and treating Estelle in the way that she did. I think that says it all - a person like Zoe was willing to go along with the group mindset, for no reason other than to belong to the group and avoid social isolation herself. I find it telling that once she was removed from the group situation, and no longer felt that need to conform, she suddenly realized that "Oh, Hey, Estelle's actually not so bad... why was I treating her like shit?"
As @up_all_night stated, it's a real shame that so many people were blinded by the superficial charms of these housemates, and how many people will justify a person's shitty behaviour simply because that person possesses a few traits that seem to hold high social value.
It doesn't matter what you think.
Bullying comes down to the individuals reaction to behaviours. Just because you don't believe it to be valid, doesn't mean you are right.
I had a situation in here not long ago where I thought I made a joke with a fellow poster, but the receiver felt I had singled them out as a target and I was a bully. I didn't, and I don't consider myself a bully, but that doesn't mean their feelings weren't valid and their response wasn't real. We all process situations differently, and we need to be mindful of that.
Jacqueline
Active Member
I don`t think Estelle was bullied, I didn`t agree with how people went into a Twitter frenzy over that. Did her more harm than good, winning over popularity. I do believe the others had a problem with living with Estelle, certainly not Estelle`s fault, they were the ones with the problem, couldn`t deal with it, like was done back in School Days, they`d gang up in own groups, have a laugh, at Estelle`s cost. At one stage Layla mentioned not liking becoming one of them with the hurtful stuff going on but went against her own gut feelings and did it anyway. Not many stand by the unpopular. Better to be seen with the in crowd. Spilled out even after the Housemates left. I think Stacey`s display, after was not nice at all. I don`t believe any of them should have been involved with who wins, as Housemates they should have had no involvement. Would not have happened with the better Big Brother (with Peter Abbott) Do I think Estelle deserved the win ? No. Do I think Ben deserved the win with his behaviour in the House? No. Josh would have, should have won, fate stepped in and that was that. It unfolded the way it did. The luck of the drawer and one year of Big Brother I would rather not think about much, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Jacqueline
Active Member
The one I think most robbed of a win over the years was Sarah - Marie Fedele. Most of Australia was behind her. Certain people had lots of money. I guess like with every year Money talks and can buy a win if you have enough. Only one over the years who did win and deserve that win was Reggie. Even last year, would have loved to see Ben win. We all thought everyone else had his back. Tim is outspoken and played the game well. I liked that what he said, he said to the person's face. Wasn't afraid of what people thought. Gained respect that way. Similar to Sarah Marie. I think he is great for Australia. Brings out the best. Exciting young man. Has Steve Irvin ' s passion.
If someone is left out of something, the bullying card is used.
I remember last year, I made a joke about Indians & I was classed as a racist.
Did that worry me. NOPE.
I just think the person who thought I was being racist is being overly politically correct.
Fran
So far so ordinary
What has what any third party (ie us) think about Ben or the Ben/Estelle dynamic got to do with who Estelle is as a person (surely the benchmark by which one likes/dislikes her)? Unless - OMG - Estelle is mind controlling that third party? Oh noes! Stop Estelle, stop! My mind is my own!
Perfect example!
I remember that "joke", and to me it read as a racist slur, and I would consider myself to be the least politically correct person in here. And just to clarify, it wasn't just one person, it was a gaggle of people who felt your joke was racially insensitive.
It is how what you say is received that determines response and reaction. By sharing what you see is a funny joke, doesn't mean it will be received as a funny joke. I felt your Indian joke was ignorant, racist and most importantly - not at all funny. That is my personal reaction, and you don't get to decide whether my response is valid. And as a side note, I think the fact you are still going on about it one year later demonstrates it does worry you.
If someone feels bullied because they are left out, that is the way they feel. It is not about you and what you decide is an appropriate response, it is how they feel.
@Trala
The sad part is you didn't have the guts to PM to tell me.
Nope you just ignored me from that moment on.
But you must have spoken about me to others by PM, as I was told about it by several posters.
And yes, I got a few PM's from posters saying they thought it was racist, but knew I wasn't being racist.
Has anyone one bitched about the HM's wanting to learn hindi so they can tell the taxi drivers that they know they are going the long way.
No they haven't.
ZOMG, the HM's are racist, as they hint only Indians take you they long way.
The sad part is you didn't have the guts to PM to tell me.
Nope you just ignored me from that moment on.
But you must have spoken about me to others by PM, as I was told about it by several posters.
And yes, I got a few PM's from posters saying they thought it was racist, but knew I wasn't being racist.
Has anyone one bitched about the HM's wanting to learn hindi so they can tell the taxi drivers that they know they are going the long way.
No they haven't.
ZOMG, the HM's are racist, as they hint only Indians take you they long way.
Calm down!
It doesn't worry you, remember?
Ha!
Newsflash Nelly, I didn't need to PM you. I said what I wanted to say to you in the thread, and that was it. As far as PM'ing any one about it, well it didn't effect me to that degree.
To address your last sentence, I am not going to even try to explain the difference between speaking as a group of friends to an Indian friend regarding helpful phrases to assist with travel, and a racist joke in a forum.
ZOMG, the HM's are racist indeed.
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This!
I can never find the words but this pretty much sums how I TRY to process situations with people. I'm not the one who feels hurt by whatever it is, but if they brought it up and expressed hurt or concern, then it's their feelings that should be considered. I do think trying to understand why the other person feels the way they do before making it about yourself is important too. It's their hurt not yours. Listen and be understanding, even if you don't understand the person themselves.
I saw the convo that took place, Trala, that you are speaking of, and I really did admire the fact you didn't get on the defensive and kick the person whilst they already felt down, but rather took a back step approach whilst still defending yourself and at the same time not making them feel like an idiot for being brave enough to express their own insecurities on the site. Btw, I'm not usually a Trala fan (sorry Trala but you can be so argumentative at times it does my head in, and I think you can get a little aggressive for me, but again I might just not understand you, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with some of what you say). The point still stands though, "we all process situations differently! and we need to be mindful of that"-I strongly and passionately agree with this!
natalia
Well-Known Member
I just don't get how two mature people after TWO years have still not managed to let go of all their hate for each other.
There comes a point where people need to move on, that point was freaking 2 years ago for these two..it's like serioualy GROW UP and just accept you don't get along and stop telling us about it.
I personally don't give a shit about estelle and bens relationship, they were only significant when they were on my TV and their drama was fun to watch, now it's just annoying - acting like they are 13 years old and holding grudges ? seriously people let it go
There comes a point where people need to move on, that point was freaking 2 years ago for these two..it's like serioualy GROW UP and just accept you don't get along and stop telling us about it.
I personally don't give a shit about estelle and bens relationship, they were only significant when they were on my TV and their drama was fun to watch, now it's just annoying - acting like they are 13 years old and holding grudges ? seriously people let it go
You might want to be careful there, chic.
Being an argumentative and aggressive poster, I might just take to the public forum to share exactly what I think of you.... but then again, that would be mean, and while I am guilty of many things, being deliberately spiteful just to hurt another persons feelings isn't one of them.
Connoisseur
Well-Known Member
^ Come on Trala, who are you trying to kid? lmao
Like you always say, own it.
But who knows maybe you've changed and are mellowing a bit as you reach vet status.
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