Game of Thrones *may include spoilers*

[Straight Edge Society]

I think there's definite benefits for not being up to where the show is in the books.

You can just enjoy it as it is and not be critiquing based on how faithful it is to the books.
For the most part, in my opinion, the series arcs have been more enjoyable than the books, which tend to get bogged down in 'detail' ala Lord of the Rings. My opinion only.

I thought this last episode was terrific. Sooooo much to look forward to next season. I don't want to wait!

I think you are dead right about this. I am not sorry I read the books after season one, because they are great pieces of fiction, but when I watch the show and a story line or aspect of a character that was so great in the books is missing it really stings. The Jaime/Tyrion relationship is missing the key element that made Tyrion who he was and explained his self worth issues and it is just tough to swallow. Also, Stannis kicking Mance's ass was so lame in the show compared to the books. It shouldn't matter, but I can't help but feel some stuff should be better. I am too petty not find Brienne vs the Hound insulting from a book stand point.

 

[Straight Edge Society]

Anyone that enters this thread and hasn't seen the latest ep is a fool.
I think the show writers were trying a bit tooo hard to draw a parallel between the Breaker of Chains and the 'hypocrisy' of chaining her very own 'off-spring'.

Like dangerous dogs (i.e. pitbulls) those things are dangerous, dany has no other alternative but to protect her subjects by keeping them locked up where they can't kill innocent children.

I wonder how the other Targs managed/controlled their former dragons.

Its a future plot point. Assuming they don't change that as well.

 

[Insomniac]

I think you are dead right about this. I am not sorry I read the books after season one, because they are great pieces of fiction, but when I watch the show and a story line or aspect of a character that was so great in the books is missing it really stings. The Jaime/Tyrion relationship is missing the key element that made Tyrion who he was and explained his self worth issues and it is just tough to swallow. Also, Stannis kicking Mance's ass was so lame in the show compared to the books. It shouldn't matter, but I can't help but feel some stuff should be better. I am too petty not find Brienne vs the Hound insulting from a book stand point.

I'm at the point in the books where I was pretty much up to what they're doing (although there are a few timing differences with a few things). I found myself comparing too although probably the opposite of you, I was liking more the treatment on the screen as opposed to some of the things in the book which gets weighed down a little, especially in the final 2 books. I've stopped reading the books for a while so I could enjoy the last couple of episodes for what they were. I actually preferred the treatment of the Hound here and Arya's departure opposed to the books. I did though wish they'd kept in the bit when Jaime rescued Tyrion, what he told him then about what Tywin did. (don't want to say too much to spoil it for people who want to read the books) - it lent, to me, much more anger and almost righteousness in killing Tywin.

 

[Straight Edge Society]

I'm at the point in the books where I was pretty much up to what they're doing (although there are a few timing differences with a few things). I found myself comparing too although probably the opposite of you, I was liking more the treatment on the screen as opposed to some of the things in the book which gets weighed down a little, especially in the final 2 books. I've stopped reading the books for a while so I could enjoy the last couple of episodes for what they were. I actually preferred the treatment of the Hound here and Arya's departure opposed to the books. I did though wish they'd kept in the bit when Jaime rescued Tyrion, what he told him then about what Tywin did. (don't want to say too much to spoil it for people who want to read the books) - it lent, to me, much more anger and almost righteousness in killing Tywin.

Yeah, we are at pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. The way they have treated Stannis post season 2 and Jon during season 2 was tough to deal with. Mostly because they were my favourite characters and they have been put through the wood chipper. In fact they have created visual art to describe what has happened to Stannis and lots of it. Its nice to know I am not alone.

I did not like the Hound Brienne fight, but I guess I will have to make peace with how differently they portray them as fighters. Neither fought anything like they do in the books. Its like watching Batman get beaten down by Green Arrow. I also felt it made Brienne look foolish and Podrick looked incompetent, which is not them at all.

The Tyrion thing completely changes his relationship with Jaime. Now they are all hearts and flowers and Tyrion is not going to want to kill him. It really changes things. One of the main things that defined Tyrion as a character has just been ignored. It feels weird somehow.

 

[Brekkie]

Great finale and thought it tied up the season nicely.

Having not read the books this is probably a criticism of them more than the show but I'm not convinced the fantasy element of dragons and wildings is really neccessary - the strength of the show, and therefore presumably the books, is the pure human element, although I think when treated as myth you can appreciate the fantasy element more.

I do worry though how long the whole thing will be dragged on for though now - we know there are a planned 7-8 books (5 published so far) and I think we've covered three now with the series itself, with the next two seasons planning to cover the next book. Please tell me it begins to actually get somehwere though because as much as we're loving the journey it's time for certain people (i.e. Daenerys) to have their storylines actually get somewhere. IMO over this season especially she's gone from one of the most interesting characters to one of the least - and same with Arya Stark too.

 

[Connoisseur]

Yeah, we are at pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum. The way they have treated Stannis post season 2 and Jon during season 2 was tough to deal with. Mostly because they were my favourite characters and they have been put through the wood chipper. In fact they have created visual art to describe what has happened to Stannis and lots of it. Its nice to know I am not alone.

I did not like the Hound Brienne fight, but I guess I will have to make peace with how differently they portray them as fighters. Neither fought anything like they do in the books. Its like watching Batman get beaten down by Green Arrow. I also felt it made Brienne look foolish and Podrick looked incompetent, which is not them at all.

The Tyrion thing completely changes his relationship with Jaime. Now they are all hearts and flowers and Tyrion is not going to want to kill him. It really changes things. One of the main things that defined Tyrion as a character has just been ignored. It feels weird somehow.

I'm intrigued about Stannis so-called 'character assasination' because I've read similar complaints from other book readers as well. I just find it hard to believe that a guy who lets himself be wrapped around the little finger of some devious red devil whore and be roped in to all her evil shenanigans, can come across as a 'favourtie' in the book.

In the show he comes across as a spineless easily duped git, tossing aside his family and friends without a second though by falling for the sweet nothings of an overly ambitious red witch who has failed to deliver on any of her promises.

There's really nothing about Stannis in the show that screams 'king' material and yet he gets his faithful lackey Davos utter it every chance he gets.

 

[Connoisseur]

Its a future plot point. Assuming they don't change that as well.

What is? The hypocrisy of chaining her precious pets? I don't think anyone would hold it against her if it prevents further random deaths of innocent subjects.

 

[Insomniac]

I'm intrigued about Stannis so-called 'character assasination' because I've read similar complaints from other book readers as well. I just find it hard to believe that a guy who lets himself be wrapped around the little finger of some devious red devil whore and be roped in to all her evil shenanigans, can come across as a 'favourtie' in the book.

In the show he comes across as a spineless easily duped git, tossing aside his family and friends without a second though by falling for the sweet nothings of an overly ambitious red witch who has failed to deliver on any of her promises.

There's really nothing about Stannis in the show that screams 'king' material and yet he gets his faithful lackey Davos utter it every chance he gets.

I was wondering the same thing - I'm intrigued as to what 'character' was being assassinated because even in the books he seems rather emotionless and self-righteous rather than a forward-thinking leader and I agree, is totally being led around by some crazy woman.

 

[up_all_night]

I did though wish they'd kept in the bit when Jaime rescued Tyrion, what he told him then about what Tywin did. (don't want to say too much to spoil it for people who want to read the books) - it lent, to me, much more anger and almost righteousness in killing Tywin.

If it's not going to spoil anything come up, but just a left out element, can you post what it is in spoilers for those that haven't read the books.

I always find these things interesting. Like people saying how Shae's betrayal at the trail was clearer and some what expected from her as a character in the books. Clearly the changed element of it seeming as if she really did love Tyrion in the show worked better then if she had been fine with him sleeping with Sansa as in the books. Makes everything from Tyrions point of view stronger and impactful.

 

[Straight Edge Society]

What is? The hypocrisy of chaining her precious pets? I don't think anyone would hold it against her if it prevents further random deaths of innocent subjects.

Taming dragons

 

[Straight Edge Society]

I'm intrigued about Stannis so-called 'character assasination' because I've read similar complaints from other book readers as well. I just find it hard to believe that a guy who lets himself be wrapped around the little finger of some devious red devil whore and be roped in to all her evil shenanigans, can come across as a 'favourtie' in the book.

In the show he comes across as a spineless easily duped git, tossing aside his family and friends without a second though by falling for the sweet nothings of an overly ambitious red witch who has failed to deliver on any of her promises.

There's really nothing about Stannis in the show that screams 'king' material and yet he gets his faithful lackey Davos utter it every chance he gets.

Stannis is a controversial character in the books. You either love him and think he should be king or you hate him. Here are some reason I, and others, love him.

Stannis is dutiful.
He held Storms End for a year because that is what Robert commanded. He went against his own natural instincts to obey the law and supported his brother Robert when he and Ned Stark rebelled. He took Dragonstone, because Robert commanded it. He ruled the seven kingdoms for 14 years with Jon Arryn while Robert drank and whored. He did everything his brother commanded of him despite the numerous slights Robert gave him. Robert soiled his marital bed on his wedding night and gave Renly Storms End when by rights it should have been Stannis. And yet Stannis does his duty regardless.

Stannis is in charge
He listens to Mel's council the same way he listens to Davos. She serves him, he is not her bitch. He disagrees with her and has gone against her council in favour of Davos on occasion. The sexual aspect of their relationship is vague and up to interpretation. There is no bit where he is begging her to come back to his bed. Stannis does not beg. Stannis does not go to the Iron Bank on bended knee, they come to him.

Stannis has an iron will.
Stannis does not bend and, so far, he does not break. He will not back down. He keeps coming at the Lannisters even when the odds seem impossible. Its like the Terminator.

Stannis is a great commander.
Tywin always considered Stannis the greatest threat to Joffrey's throne even when he had no army. Stannis held Storms End with a handful of men against all the power of the Reach, took Dragonstone, Destroyed the Greyjoy fleet (who could beat the Greyjoys at sea?), took Great Wyk, Destroyed Mance Rayders army of giants and wildings even though they outnumbered him 20 to 1. Stannis is badass.

Stannis is about justice
When Stannis destroyed Mance Rayder's army two of his men raped wilding women. He gelded both of them and condemned them as criminals. Tywin orders his men to rape. But Stannis keeps his men in line. Stannis does not want the throne, it is simply the law. He is Roberts heir, incest is a crime, therefore that injustice must be righted.

Stannis has a dry sense of humour
He actually has the ability to quite funny.

Stephen Dilane does OK with the crap he is provided. But dear god have they treated him poorly.

 

[Straight Edge Society]

Great finale and thought it tied up the season nicely.

Having not read the books this is probably a criticism of them more than the show but I'm not convinced the fantasy element of dragons and wildings is really neccessary - the strength of the show, and therefore presumably the books, is the pure human element, although I think when treated as myth you can appreciate the fantasy element more.

I do worry though how long the whole thing will be dragged on for though now - we know there are a planned 7-8 books (5 published so far) and I think we've covered three now with the series itself, with the next two seasons planning to cover the next book. Please tell me it begins to actually get somehwere though because as much as we're loving the journey it's time for certain people (i.e. Daenerys) to have their storylines actually get somewhere. IMO over this season especially she's gone from one of the most interesting characters to one of the least - and same with Arya Stark too.

Apparently he originally planned the series to be three books. When it became longer he had to find a reason for Dany not to get to Westeros during the books for a long time. Hence, Mereen and the slave story line.

 

[Connoisseur]

Stannis is a controversial character in the books. You either love him and think he should be king or you hate him. Here are some reason I, and others, love him.

Stannis is dutiful.
He held Storms End for a year because that is what Robert commanded. He went against his own natural instincts to obey the law and supported his brother Robert when he and Ned Stark rebelled. He took Dragonstone, because Robert commanded it. He ruled the seven kingdoms for 14 years with Jon Arryn while Robert drank and whored. He did everything his brother commanded of him despite the numerous slights Robert gave him. Robert soiled his marital bed on his wedding night and gave Renly Storms End when by rights it should have been Stannis. And yet Stannis does his duty regardless.

Stannis is in charge
He listens to Mel's council the same way he listens to Davos. She serves him, he is not her bitch. He disagrees with her and has gone against her council in favour of Davos on occasion. The sexual aspect of their relationship is vague and up to interpretation. There is no bit where he is begging her to come back to his bed. Stannis does not beg. Stannis does not go to the Iron Bank on bended knee, they come to him.

Stannis has an iron will.
Stannis does not bend and, so far, he does not break. He will not back down. He keeps coming at the Lannisters even when the odds seem impossible. Its like the Terminator.

Stannis is a great commander.
Tywin always considered Stannis the greatest threat to Joffrey's throne even when he had no army. Stannis held Storms End with a handful of men against all the power of the Reach, took Dragonstone, Destroyed the Greyjoy fleet (who could beat the Greyjoys at sea?), took Great Wyk, Destroyed Mance Rayders army of giants and wildings even though they outnumbered him 20 to 1. Stannis is badass.

Stannis is about justice
When Stannis destroyed Mance Rayder's army two of his men raped wilding women. He gelded both of them and condemned them as criminals. Tywin orders his men to rape. But Stannis keeps his men in line. Stannis does not want the throne, it is simply the law. He is Roberts heir, incest is a crime, therefore that injustice must be righted.

Stannis has a dry sense of humour
He actually has the ability to quite funny.

Stephen Dilane does OK with the crap he is provided. But dear god have they treated him poorly.

He listens to Mel's council the same way he listens to Davos. She serves him, he is not her bitch. He disagrees with her and has gone against her council in favour of Davos on occasion. The sexual aspect of their relationship is vague and up to interpretation. There is no bit where he is begging her to come back to his bed. Stannis does not beg. Stannis does not go to the Iron Bank on bended knee, they come to him.

Very interesting. That's not how it is portrayed in the show though. He has Davos to thank for convincing the Iron Bank in lending him the money he needs to become the '1 True King' because they basically laughed at his claims of being the rightful heir to the throne. Sorry, his pitiful half arsed attempt at arguing his case was not bad ass at all.

And in regards to the Red Woman again the way this relationship is portrayed there is no doubt that she seems to be one calling the shots with Stannis only interrupting her to ask how high.

You get the feeling that Stannis is prepared to sacrifice and burn his daughter and wife to appease the red woman's god if that's what it takes to sit on the Iron Throne.

Like I said I'm very intrigued as these contradicting perceptions of Stannis and may have to read the books to make up my mind.

 

[delcan]

Stannis is a controversial character in the books. You either love him and think he should be king or you hate him. Here are some reason I, and others, love him.

Stannis is dutiful.
He held Storms End for a year because that is what Robert commanded. He went against his own natural instincts to obey the law and supported his brother Robert when he and Ned Stark rebelled. He took Dragonstone, because Robert commanded it. He ruled the seven kingdoms for 14 years with Jon Arryn while Robert drank and whored. He did everything his brother commanded of him despite the numerous slights Robert gave him. Robert soiled his marital bed on his wedding night and gave Renly Storms End when by rights it should have been Stannis. And yet Stannis does his duty regardless.

Stannis is in charge
He listens to Mel's council the same way he listens to Davos. She serves him, he is not her bitch. He disagrees with her and has gone against her council in favour of Davos on occasion. The sexual aspect of their relationship is vague and up to interpretation. There is no bit where he is begging her to come back to his bed. Stannis does not beg. Stannis does not go to the Iron Bank on bended knee, they come to him.

Stannis has an iron will.
Stannis does not bend and, so far, he does not break. He will not back down. He keeps coming at the Lannisters even when the odds seem impossible. Its like the Terminator.

Stannis is a great commander.
Tywin always considered Stannis the greatest threat to Joffrey's throne even when he had no army. Stannis held Storms End with a handful of men against all the power of the Reach, took Dragonstone, Destroyed the Greyjoy fleet (who could beat the Greyjoys at sea?), took Great Wyk, Destroyed Mance Rayders army of giants and wildings even though they outnumbered him 20 to 1. Stannis is badass.

Stannis is about justice
When Stannis destroyed Mance Rayder's army two of his men raped wilding women. He gelded both of them and condemned them as criminals. Tywin orders his men to rape. But Stannis keeps his men in line. Stannis does not want the throne, it is simply the law. He is Roberts heir, incest is a crime, therefore that injustice must be righted.

Stannis has a dry sense of humour
He actually has the ability to quite funny.

Stephen Dilane does OK with the crap he is provided. But dear god have they treated him poorly.

I get why you are pissed. I pretty have seen Stannis as weak, Mel's bitch and mean to Davos (who is one of my favourite characters). Maybe things will change for Stannis now - I think it's pretty clear he will be a big part of the next season based on the finale

 

[Straight Edge Society]

I get why you are pissed. I pretty have seen Stannis as weak, Mel's bitch and mean to Davos (who is one of my favourite characters). Maybe things will change for Stannis now - I think it's pretty clear he will be a big part of the next season based on the finale

Well, he is sort of mean to Davos in the books, but Stannis is sort of mean to everyone. But everything Davos has he owes to Stannis and he is totally loyal because of that. In the books Davos has seven sons. Four die during the Battle of the Blackwater. His fifth, Davon, is Stannis' squire and Stannis educates him alongside his daughter Shireen and kept him safe on the Blackwater. Davos' sixth son is named after Stannis. There is a lot of respect and a great bond between them. Another thing missing from the show.

 

[Straight Edge Society]

Very interesting. That's not how it is portrayed in the show though. He has Davos to thank for convincing the Iron Bank in lending him the money he needs to become the '1 True King' because they basically laughed at his claims of being the rightful heir to the throne. Sorry, his pitiful half arsed attempt at arguing his case was not bad ass at all.

And in regards to the Red Woman again the way this relationship is portrayed there is no doubt that she seems to be one calling the shots with Stannis only interrupting her to ask how high.

You get the feeling that Stannis is prepared to sacrifice and burn his daughter and wife to appease the red woman's god if that's what it takes to sit on the Iron Throne.

Like I said I'm very intrigued as these contradicting perceptions of Stannis and may have to read the books to make up my mind.

Absolutely not the case. They come to him because Cersei refuses to pay them their due (its not a spoiler since they are already with Stannis). Stannis does not beg.

Stannis does not want to execute Davos for letting Gendry/Edric get away but is stopped by Mel. He admonishes him for letting Edric go before Davos helps convince him that the nights watch needs him to protect the North. So, he puts aside his quest to become King to protect the North because that is what a King does in his mind. His choice to go North HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MEL! These producers have decided to make Stannis look poor and make it easier to play him like a villain.

Stannis orders his men to continue to fight for his daughters rights to the Iron Throne, even if he dies during the war. He loves her, he just has a tough time showing it. He can't stand his wife, but that was an arranged marriage.

Its the worst character assassination of the series, just ahead of Jon Snow's treatment in season 2. And it kills me because he was my favourite character (as well as possibly Ned or Jon). Like watching Man of Steel, only worse.

 

[Connoisseur]

Absolutely not the case. They come to him because Cersei refuses to pay them their due (its not a spoiler since they are already with Stannis). Stannis does not beg.

That is a significant deviation from the books then as it is clear in the show that Stannis came begging to The Iron Bank and they only acquiesced after Davos made an excellent spiel on his behalf. I also don't remember Davos mentioning Cersei or the Lannisters inability to pay their debts (a first, although we know Tywin admitted to Cersei this season that they've run out of gold) in order to get them to back Stannis.

I wonder why the writers went with this take on a GoT character and how G Martin feels about it. Perhaps they writers know something we don't and G Martin gave them his blessing.

 

[Straight Edge Society]

That is a significant deviation from the books then as it is clear in the show that Stannis came begging to The Iron Bank and they only acquiesced after Davos made an excellent spiel on his behalf. I also don't remember Davos mentioning Cersei or the Lannisters inability to pay their debts (a first, although we know Tywin admitted to Cersei this season that they've run out of gold) in order to get them to back Stannis.

I wonder why the writers went with this take on a GoT character and how G Martin feels about it. Perhaps they writers know something we don't and G Martin gave them his blessing.

The lack of gold thing is also a departure. There is no mention of Casterly Rock lacking gold. Cersei tells the Iron Bank to bugger off so that the crown can build 12 new war ships with Crown money after their fleet was burnt on the Blackwater. Then the Iron Bank go to Stannis in the hopes he will agree to pay the crowns debts. In return they offer all the gold he will need to pay for his war. In the books the Crown is six million gold in debt, three million in debt to the Lannisters. The remainder of the debt is split between the IB, the Tyrells and several trading cartels. Why they decided to change that to the crown owing the Iron Bank "tens of millions" confuses me. Its also poor continuity since Littlefinger already admitted in the first season that the crown was only six million in debt.

I think about that sometimes. Like, are they doing it because they do not have the time to fit in all of the details? Because those details don't really affect the big picture? As long as the bank is backing Stannis it does not matter how it happened? I get the feeling they wanted to make Cersei seem less incompetent in the show for some reason.

I know GRRM questioned the change that was made to the Cersei/Jaime sept (church) rape scene. In the books Cersei definitely consented and in the show it basically looks like he raped her.

 

[Insomniac]

Stannis is a controversial character in the books. You either love him and think he should be king or you hate him. Here are some reason I, and others, love him.

Stannis is dutiful.
He held Storms End for a year because that is what Robert commanded. He went against his own natural instincts to obey the law and supported his brother Robert when he and Ned Stark rebelled. He took Dragonstone, because Robert commanded it. He ruled the seven kingdoms for 14 years with Jon Arryn while Robert drank and whored. He did everything his brother commanded of him despite the numerous slights Robert gave him. Robert soiled his marital bed on his wedding night and gave Renly Storms End when by rights it should have been Stannis. And yet Stannis does his duty regardless.

Stannis is in charge
He listens to Mel's council the same way he listens to Davos. She serves him, he is not her bitch. He disagrees with her and has gone against her council in favour of Davos on occasion. The sexual aspect of their relationship is vague and up to interpretation. There is no bit where he is begging her to come back to his bed. Stannis does not beg. Stannis does not go to the Iron Bank on bended knee, they come to him.

Stannis has an iron will.
Stannis does not bend and, so far, he does not break. He will not back down. He keeps coming at the Lannisters even when the odds seem impossible. Its like the Terminator.

Stannis is a great commander.
Tywin always considered Stannis the greatest threat to Joffrey's throne even when he had no army. Stannis held Storms End with a handful of men against all the power of the Reach, took Dragonstone, Destroyed the Greyjoy fleet (who could beat the Greyjoys at sea?), took Great Wyk, Destroyed Mance Rayders army of giants and wildings even though they outnumbered him 20 to 1. Stannis is badass.

Stannis is about justice
When Stannis destroyed Mance Rayder's army two of his men raped wilding women. He gelded both of them and condemned them as criminals. Tywin orders his men to rape. But Stannis keeps his men in line. Stannis does not want the throne, it is simply the law. He is Roberts heir, incest is a crime, therefore that injustice must be righted.

Stannis has a dry sense of humour
He actually has the ability to quite funny.

Stephen Dilane does OK with the crap he is provided. But dear god have they treated him poorly.

That is why I think we're at opposites in some things. Because I saw the show first, and then started reading the books, my initial impression of him has been formed based on what I saw, whereas yours has been based on what you read. I dont see so much the attributes you've described but you've definitely given me something to consider going forward. That was interesting, thanks for that!

 

[Straight Edge Society]

That is why I think we're at opposites in some things. Because I saw the show first, and then started reading the books, my initial impression of him has been formed based on what I saw, whereas yours has been based on what you read. I dont see so much the attributes you've described but you've definitely given me something to consider going forward. That was interesting, thanks for that!

I think you're right. Having said that I am still less than happy with the changes made to Renly, even though I had already seen a season with him and never liked him in the books. Stannis is one of those really polarizing characters and some people don't see those things. I have noticed a similar reaction to Dany among ASOIAF fans. You either love her or you hate her and I see a fair bit of hate among the fans. Its a matter of personal taste, I suppose.